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David Poland

By David Poland poland@moviecitynews.com

Weekend Estimate by Coco Clady

Weekemd Estimates 2017-11-26 at 10.51.58 AM

For those who aren’t  going back to yesterday’s comments, I made a mistake. Disney will not be up domestically this year. They will be down about $300 million… with three fewer movies. Still, everything else I wrote stands. And the principle of what I wrote stands. The media is in hysterical frenzy, anxious to move on from theatrical, with almost no effort at all to understand what that would mean to films, even on a purely financial level. I remind again… theatrical is the #1 revenue stream for films… not streaming… not VOD… not pay-TV… and certainly not Blu-ray and DVD.

Coco‘s open is hammocked in between November Disney animated releases Wreck-It-Ralph and Tangled. $200 million will the the domestic target.

No other wide openings and not much to say about holdovers,

Call Me By Your Name has, by estimate, failed to crack $100k per-screen after a $40k per-screeen start on Friday. Still, nothing to cry about… still the top per-screen of 2017 to date.

Darkest Hour‘s $43,650 per-screen estimate on four is good, in the area of Traffic and Black Hawk Down. As a movie for the older audience, it may take some time (and some awards for Oldman) for it to get rolling.

Lady Bird and Three Billboards are cruising nicely.

59 Responses to “Weekend Estimate by Coco Clady”

  1. Movieman says:

    Apropos of nothing on here:
    I finally had the chance to see “Wonderstruck,” and I’m even more puzzled now as to why it didn’t find an audience.
    It’s (easily) Todd Haynes’ most accessible (to general auds) film to date, and I think one of his finest.
    Impossible to remain unmoved by the third act revelation.

  2. Movieman says:

    Are Denzel’s Oscar chances officially kaput after the b.o. catastrophe of “Roman J.”?
    I’m kind of shocked it’s done so poorly. Yes, the reviews were mixed, and it looked like a downer. But “Flight” didn’t receive unanimous raves either and was hugely depressing.
    I thought Denzel was one of the few stars left who can still open movies (even though his films generally seem to have a $100-million ceiling).
    Maybe not, huh?

  3. Geoff says:

    Denzel can open most MAINSTREAM films but with that title and a trailer that I sure as hell couldn’t figure out the plot, this wasn’t the case. I don’t care how big a star you are right now, you can’t open EVERYTHING.

  4. JS Partisan says:

    Flight, wasn’t hugely depressing. It had an uplifting ending, really good acting supporting Denzel, and a story that’s about being a fuck and finding redemption. Roman J looks like hot fucking garbage, gives Denzel a goofy fucking hair. No. No. No. No. No. No.

    And movieman, it’s not meant to play in theatres. It’s meant to play on Prime. It’s a prime movie, and that’s where people will see it, and probably fall in love with it.

  5. Stella Boy says:

    I don’t remember Flight being hugely depressing. I remember liking it a lot even though it feels like something I saw 15 years ago. I saw several Roman J tv spots over the long weekend and for $100,000 I couldn’t tell you what it’s about. An odd lawyer who lives in the past?

  6. Poet says:

    The Roman J trailer definitely could have used Maurice Le Marche to explain to us all what’s at stake.

  7. Movieman says:

    All I can remember from “Flight” (which I didn’t care for: haven’t liked a Zemeckis movie since “Cast Away”) was its relentless gloominess.
    Guess I’m alone in thinking the “Roman” trailer wasn’t particularly off-putting–although someone close to me said that Denzel’s Afro would prove to be its b.o. Kryptonite.
    Maybe she was right.

  8. brack says:

    Roman J essentially had a dumped opening. Virtually no promotion for it it (didn’t see the tv spots, but they sound confusing) and I felt like I saw the whole movie in its trailer the two or three times I saw it in theaters. Also looked very by-the-numbers. Not surprised it didn’t open. And that title, wow.

  9. palmtree says:

    I have a feeling Coco will surprise people and have legs far beyond $200m, despite what the comps suggest. It’s really connecting to audiences in an Inside Out sort of way. I can see it doing a Sing and going $270m, which sounds crazy until you remember that no one thought Sing would get to $270 either.

  10. Nick says:

    Why did anyone ever think Roman J would work? What about it at all makes sense in today’s market? And yes the promotion was as bad as it gets. Has there been any good promos lately?

  11. Ray Pride says:

    A last-minute change from Inner City.

  12. brack says:

    Coco got an A+ CinemaScore, which I know can mean diddly squat sometimes, but it could mean having decent legs.

  13. Bitplaya says:

    Coco also has the effect of doing big business in the latin market. New merchandising opportunities, new theme park characters. Disney plays the long game.

    Finally y saw JL. It was a cluster and deserves to die. Most shoddy big budget movie I’eve seen. Looks like Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow in places. All involved should be ashamed.

  14. JS Partisan says:

    All involved, fixed a film where Superman was still a schmuck. If you don’t understand why the FX’s were rush, and that it had to do with fixing Snyder’s nonsense… well… you are really really understanding.

  15. PcChongor says:

    I wish “Sacred Deer” would’ve broken out a bit more, but $2.1 million still seems like a godsend for how fucking weird it is. And Gerwig seems like a lock for a Best Director nom at this point.

  16. Sideshow Bill says:

    I’m not gonna get a chance to see Sacred Deer until home video i.e. January. I hate being a mid-western plebeian. Justice League is on 4 screens at my local cinema. Yea, I liked it, but man….Lady Bird. Florida Project. Etc etc etc…..

  17. JS Partisan says:

    Here’s the problem for Warners: their TV shows are too damn good. They just are. I’m not stating, that all of the Arrowverse shows, haven’t made some wonky fucking decisions, and are far from cinematic on most occasions. Baring all of that… Crisis on Earth X, is better than JL. It just is, and why is it better? Everyone involved making it… GIVES A FUCK. GIVING A FUCK, is why the MSCU is where it is, because you can’t be ashamed of this shit, and am I the only one who feels Warners are ashamed of this shit? They want to be making their “OSCAR FILMS,” but they have to make these goofy as comic book movies, to make the god damn money.

    I’m not doubting, that some folks making the DCEU movies care. Right at the top though… everything the Warners execs have been saying for years, has just screamed, “WE WANT TO BE SERIOUS AND IF WE CAN’T BE SERIOUS? FUCK!!!” This seems to be the problem.

    The Arrowverse TV shows, can be dark and grim as fuck, but still try to have fun in the realm of that world. The entire point of the DCEU, even though they fixed it in JL, was to ignore what it meant to be a comic book film.

    I doubt the execs will learn from TV’s side of things, but Crisis on Earth X is what a team up is meant to be. It’s also a great fuck you from TV to Film, where they go, “You TOOK OUR SUICIDE SQUAD, SO WE JUST MAKE YOUR TEAM UP FILM LOOK LIKE SHIT!” Whatever they do with the future of DC films… they need to give a fuck like Gal and Patty give a fuck.

  18. Pete B says:

    Holy Moly, JS and I agree on something!
    The CW Crossover was alot of fun and I enjoyed it more than JL too. One advantage the TV shows have is that you get to spend much more time with the characters if you watch regularly. A movie has to grab you and get you to invest immediately. Something Wonder Woman did very well.

  19. JS Partisan says:

    Pete, the time is a factor, but on it’s own merits? It’s just a better constructed narrative and use of the characters, and that’s nuts.

    Also, I want to know what Geoff thinks about the Infinity War trailer, because that shit is insane.

  20. amblinman says:

    Flash sucks though, JS. So does Arrow. And Legends. Flash was awesome its first season or two, then…fart noise. Arrow’s flashback structure was tiresome from day one.

    Avengers trailer, however, does not suck. It dawned on me that the average moviegoer has no idea GOTG are supposed to show up in the film. The end stinger is gonna tack on a shit ton of “DAAAAAAMN!” from lots of folks over the next few days.

  21. Hcat says:

    I am really tired of superhero films but I have to say the Infinity Wars trailer does sell it well. Hits the beats without smashing them. Builds it up real nice, excited to see the hulkbuster armor again, the voiceovers in the beginning is a nice touch. I still have a problem with the CGI armies rushing toward each other, it seemed novel in the prequels and Mummy Returns but by the end of the first Rings trilogy I have lost interest in it. But they have done what I did not think was possible which was make the original Avengers movie look small in comparison. Still a little concerned about the appearance of a portal in the sky though.

    Speaking of comic films, I am curious what everyone thinks of the NBR list that was released, I know Logan got a ton of accolades early in the year, but if they wanted to give a shout out to the cheap seats aren’t Wonder Woman or Thor the more accomplished films?

  22. Coven says:

    The IW trailer is why Disney should buy off Fox immediately and dominate with ALL of Marvel IPs.

    Be afraid, WB and Universal, be very afraid.

  23. Hcat says:

    To be honest the last thing I thought when I watched this is that it needed another dozen heroes.

  24. amblinman says:

    “Still a little concerned about the appearance of a portal in the sky though.”

    Yes, BUT in the comics, Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet were one of the better universe-ending macguffins. Hopefully they stick the landing on it in the film(s).

  25. Hcat says:

    They split this into two correct? So this one is a few different groups (Space, Wakanda, New York) getting beat down separately before they all come together in the next. I’d put five bucks down on the last word spoken before the credits roll being “assemble”

  26. palmtree says:

    I really enjoyed the Silvestri theme being used so prominently. Marvel has gotten criticized for their generic film scores. With this it’s now hard to deny that they are loud and proud with having this theme represent them (and not some silly cover song like they did for Avengers 2).

  27. MarkVH says:

    Inifinity War trailer looks pretty much like what it is – the season finale for a TV show. So it looks fine, I guess.

  28. JS Partisan says:

    Man, Flash has had ups and downs, but that’s the preferred version of the character to a lot of people. Legends is fucking fun, and led by one of the best female character in ANY MEDIUM… Caity Lotz is the real fucking deal. Arrow is a mixed fucking bag, and the same with Supergirl. We just have to agree to disagree about them, because I love that little part of DC.

    Mark, you and Geoff, need to find a hotel room, and just complain about this stuff in person. It looks as epic as it fucking gets.

    Hcat, you may earn that five dollars, but you the last scene of the movie may be fucking Thanos laughing with his gauntlet on. The next film, as Zoe Saladana stated, is about them going after Thanos.

    Sorry you are annoyed with comic book films, because we have 20 films to go. 20 more films to go in this universe, but they will at least be different. I mean, Marvel Studios has to hold down the fort. While LFL is going to waste time with Johnson’s Folly.

  29. MarkVH says:

    Not really complaining about anything. It looks fine. I might even see it, as I’ve enjoyed a Marvel movie or two. But “as epic as it gets?” Let’s ease up on the hyperbole, though I recognize that’s your thing. It looks kinda fun, with an extra side of Marvel same-old, same-old. That’s about it.

  30. Hcat says:

    The “All the Money in the World” trailer came out today as well. Looks a lot more action packed than I anticipated, and I can see why Plummer was Scott’s first choice for this, he can play this type of creepy without hamming it up. His few snippets in the trailer confirm they did the right thing reshooting.

    Always look forward to Sony’s based on the incredible true story type films (Social Network, Captain Phillips, Moneyball), it seems like the only thing they really have a handle on.

  31. JS Partisan says:

    How many fucking David Lean movies have you seen, Mark? That’s all I see when I see a big army running, and guess what? That’s epic. To millions and millions of people, that last shit before the stinger, is fucking epic.

    Now, if you don’t like Marvel studio films and think they are all the damn same, then good luck with you finding jack and shit out there. The Mary Magdalene trailer was nice… except for white people playing Mary and Jesus. The Coming Out trailer, was also pretty nice, with a nice stinger.

  32. MarkVH says:

    I’ve seen seven David Lean movies by my count, and I count exactly one Lean movie that features a big army running (Lawrence). Are there others that I’m missing?

    Also, if you’re mentioning Marvel movies in the same breath as Lean, then we’re probably done here.

  33. Hcat says:

    Was there not a scene of Hepburn leading a horde of merchant marines through the streets of Venice in Summertime? I must be misremembering that movie.

    And when Lean or Wyler or Ford did it, they used real people which gave it more of a sense of awe than simply Pixels on a screen.

  34. Pete B says:

    JS, we are 2 for 2. Caity Lotz IS the real deal.
    Legends Season 3 is firing on all cylinders. It suffered from a subpar Season One due to the canned ham villain performance and the wooden Hawkfolks. Season 2 was a marked improvement, and this Season puts it ahead of the other CW shows.

  35. brack says:

    Infinity War is as epic as it gets. It’s bringing together all of these characters, very beloved characters, and it looks like it could be the best MCU movie yet. Say what you will about superhero movies, but the MCU has been getting better and better imo. I’m just glad Black Panther isn’t too far away, and I’m probably going to watch my home video collection of the MCU quite a bit, so yeah, the trailer was more than effective. It’s easily going to be the biggest movie next year.

  36. JS Partisan says:

    Brack, if you’re taking a piss.. good job :P!

    Mark, I was already done with you, when you dismissed the most significant moment in filmmaking this century. It is what it is, but it’s just so tacky. Tacky. Tacky. Tacky. I am sure we agree to disagree.

    Hcat, and all of those people blend together, and look like a blob of pixels on a screen. They were watched that way on screens, for decades. Excuse me not having a problem with any battle scene, that doesn’t features real people or their horses, getting hurt.

  37. Geoff says:

    Been a few days with work, travel, and baby dominating but I appreciate the shout out, JS. 😉

    First of all just regarding the other blog, Cobra was actually the original concept of Beverly Hills Cop when Sly Stallone was first attached to star BEFORE he left and Eddie and Martin Brest took over…..it was pretty much just a fish-out-of-water shoot-em-up, then Stallone reformatted it again a couple of years later for Cobra. Just saying….

    As for the Infinity War trailer, it’s pretty good – I really dig that Silvestri theme and that they’re bringing him back apparently, I like Steve Rogers’ new look, and I love how T’Challa and his crew are leading the charge in some of those battle scenes. Is it the greatest trailer ever? No, it’s not even the best Avengers trailer….THAT honor still goes to that very first ‘Age of Ultron teaser which was fucking awesome and still the best trailer for any MCU film except maybe….that very first Iron Man Comic Con sizzle reel.

    Good trailer and yet…so what? :) It’s STILL being directed by the Russo Brothers, that’s the problem – taking my typical MCU issues out the equation, I would still be SO much more jazzed for this film if they had some one else helming this thing, NOT these guys – afraid to offend, never 40 seconds away from a gag to reassure you, no clue on pacing or building narrative tension, and of course FIRST AND FOREMOST always slavishly beholden to show-runner Feige’s endless flow-chart – hell even James Gunn would have been a more interesting choice at the very least because he seems to let his freak flag fly a bit. Branaugh or Favreau coming back would have cool, maybe some one else….who knows? Five years ago, maybe Bryan Singer…nah some one fresh to the genre.

    And no, this isn’t me being a cinema snob – hell I enjoyed Justice League BECAUSE of how little it resembled anything else done by Zack Snyder….I don’t need my superhero movies to be heavy metal album cover slogfests, but I want a GOOD movie that EARNS the word “epic” and after the BVS-with-laughs glop-fest of ‘Civil War, they just would not have been my top choice. And JS, I know you’re the OG Marvel fan but the vast majority of die-hard Marvel fans I’m friendly with believe and KNOW that The Avengers was a FAR superior film to ‘Civil War…and for the reasons I even mentioned last week: KEEP IT SIMPLE….half a dozen heroes meeting, fighting, getting to know each other….ONE familiar villain who one of them is related to with a faceless army at his disposal, trying to use his magic spear to open up some portal…..and they band together to STOP him, THAT’S IT! SIMPLE!

    Less than 10 main characters, gives each one time to shine…not this “well 25 years ago Bucky was part of this Russian soldier gang…and he killed Tony’s mom….before being frozen again….and discovered by this Zemo dude who lost his family in Sokovia and wants to frame him….by torturing some dude in Cleveland….before setting off a bomb in Berlin…..so that he can lure Cap and Tony to this lair where the soldiers were frozen…only to show them this videotape of who killed Tony’s parents….and in the middle, there’s this big airport fight with a bunch of side characters who have nothing to do Zemo….” Just describing that plot easily leaves the words “fun” or “epic” off the table. And to pull that off that kind of plot, you need Oliver Stone or Alan Pacula…not the fucking hacks who behind Community.

    Who knows maybe they’ll keep it simpler with ‘Infinity War but not with 60 fucking characters thrown in the mix….and forget the fact they’re also setting up a sequel to come out a YEAR later so no, simplicity is NOT on the menu.

    Thinking about it, in a perfect world James Cameron could have directed the shit out of this….but that was never gonna happen. I’m thinking George Miller or Brad Bird, even after Tomorrowland. But not these guys, not the Russos….what do they have to prove even? This is their THIRD time around and they’ve had every one kissing their ass for more than three years since ‘The Winter Soldier telling them how they created the “The Godfather Part II” of comic book movies!! 😛

    Admit it JS: just on the surface, the Russos are EXACTLY where Raimi was directing Spiderman 3, Singer directing Superman Returns, Vaughn directing the Kingsman sequel, and Nolan directing The Dark Knight Rises – I loved The Dark Knight Rises but I know you didn’t. 😉

    Nah I’m feeling pretty safe with my bet right now – yeah ‘Guardians 2 made bank this May but not as much overseas as it could partially thanks to ‘Pirates 5 coming out a few weeks later….and Avengers 3.5 has fucking Solo coming out a few weeks later, THE big $400 million plus ego trip from Kathleen Kennedy that you know Disney is going to move heaven and earth to not only promote the shit out of but lock up every IMAX screen in existence to show…..and then you have Deadpool 2 RIGHT after that…..and then two weeks later you have The Incredibles 2! :) Disney is just cannibalizing themselves at this point as they have done two years prior.

    And about this argument that there’s no passion from the DC crew, I’ll grant you – for Whedon, it was more of a chance to get his Batgirl fetish project off the ground and stick it to Marvel at the same time….and let’s face it for Snyder, he should have walked away from this gig after Man of Steel and tragic events didn’t make it any easier. Affleck’s been playing his games too. But the rest of that cast was THERE TO PLAY – Mamoa’s been promoting this thing for what seems like five years, Miller’s a die hard fanboy and you can see he’s loved every minute of being The Flash, and Ray Fisher comes off in interviews as about as genuine as they come to take on Cyborg. And James Wan seems beside himself tweeting shit left and right about all of the shit he’s doing for Aquaman in Australia. The passion is THERE…just as it’s been there for Tom Holland and RDJ and Anthony Mackie, there’s no shortage of passion from anybody doing these kind of movies.

    If there’s any one out there who’s going to disprove my ongoing thesis statement about MCU being big budget workplace sitcom featuring superheroes, it’s Ryan Coogler and we’ll find out in less than three months….so there’s hope.

  38. MarkVH says:

    There you go with the hyperbole again. And yeah, I know, it’s what you do.

    The most significant moment in filmmaking this century? Are you high? It’s a big crossover episode of a TV series, no matter how much money it makes.

  39. brack says:

    Justice League is the weakest superhero movie since X-Men Apocalypse. Civil War was a fantastic addition to the Captain America series. Might not be Winter Soldier good, but it’s better than any of the DCEU except for maybe Wonder Woman. You point out plot points that you say were too complicated, yet you explained the plot pretty easily. I’m not even sure what you’re trying to do, criticize the plot or show off that you can follow it.

    Say what you will about Civil War, but the conflict was earned, and not just shoehorned and embarrassing to watch like it was in BvS. Also, Justice League had the worst main villain in a superhero movie in years. Just a horrible cliche that reminded me of Surtur from Ragnarok, except with unintentional laughs. It also did a piss poor job of making us care about the Justice League. And it’s going to lose money. You may have liked it, but audiences left disappointed.

    And you want to knock Guardians 2 international (a point you keep repeating for some odd reason, and mentioning Pirates 5 is funny since that’s more money for Disney). but omit how well Ragnarok is doing and how Spider-Man Homecoming did internationally (co production with Marvel Studios). Disney isn’t canabalizing, Infinity War will make most of its money in the three weeks prior to Solo, and Incredibles 2 is a different demo. Deadpool 2 might be making a mistake with a summer release, but Fox isn’t as smart as Disney.

  40. brack says:

    Mark – belittling these movies as TV shows (that supposed to be an insult? lol) doesn’t serve you well, it makes for a weak and thoughtless comment. And sorry, this is box office discussion, so the “no matter how much money it makes” comment is laughable. This is a business, and like it or not, movies are made to make money first and foremost, not to be great cinema. But numbers don’t lie, what the MCU is doing is something of the likes that we’ve never seen before. It’s what WB, Universal, and others are chasing. Infinity War may be that significant, this century isn’t that many years deep. But it is a movie ten years in the making, so yeah, that’s kind of a big deal and impressive to say the least.

  41. MarkVH says:

    Not supposed to be an insult. Just calling a spade a spade.

    And whether movies are made to make money is kind of dependent on who’s making them. Studio? Sure. Filmmaker? That doesn’t strike me as someone like Wes Anderson or Martin Scorsese’s primary objective.

    Obviously, THESE movies are made to make money. You’re saying this like it’s some great revelation? It’s also the reason why there’ll never be a really great one – too much brand management, no real movie magic. They’re fun, enjoyable (some of them, anyway), and yeah, it’s cute to watch all the characters from one movie interact with the ones from another. But give me a reason to care, because right now I don’t give much of a shit.

    And sure, the achievement is impressive – they managed to make a long-running TV series for movie theaters, and it turned into a cash cow. Good for them. I’m sure this one will make a lot of money – probably about on par with Age of Ultron, though I doubt it’ll eclipse the first Avengers. Doesn’t mean it’ll be a great movie.

  42. MarkVH says:

    Also, let’s be clear – I’m not anti-Marvel. They’re fun! I was even kind of looking forward to Infinity War. But I have to admit feeling underwhelmed by the trailer, even more so on a second viewing. Lots of people we’ve seen in the other movies meeting each other. Cool. Cap with a beard. Cool. Thanos looks – weird, CG looks goofy. But the main question – will I care? I don’t yet, and the trailer didn’t make me. Maybe the movie will.

  43. Stella's Boy says:

    I like talking about Marvel because I like talking about movies, but as someone who hasn’t really liked most of the MCU movies I’ve seen, I don’t know how to talk about them without totally pissing off the MCU fans here. You all are so defensive. Nothing is immune to valid criticism. Why would you want everyone to feel the same way you do? What a boring world that would be.

  44. brack says:

    If Wes Anderson’s or Scorsese’s films weren’t at least mostly profitable, they wouldn’t be making movies, sorry to break the news to you. That’s calling a spade a spade. Whether or not they’re good is secondary. Always has been this way, always will be. Not something revolutionary, and it’s never a reason a piece of commercial entertainment can’t be great either. That’s a very small minded way of thinking about entertainment if you’re just judging this stuff on the surface, which it seems like many do.

    If you found out Scorsese was directing a Marvel movie, would you change your tune? I’m guessing so. Of course his superhero movie would have to have Gimme Shelter playing in the background at one point, and all the characters saying fuck ever two seconds. See, I can play this silly game too. I care way more about the characters created in these Marvel movies than I do watching a Wes Anderson or Scorsese film, save for maybe Hugo. They make good movies, occasionally great movies, but a lot of their characters feel recycled from their other films, especially Anderson. Doesn’t help they use a lot of the same actors in a multitude of their films.

    There have already been great Marvel movies. Ragnarok is the best one I’ve seen so far. It just went for it and was a lot of fun. Do they have to be these dramatic Oscar bait movies to be “great”? I don’t think so. Like what you like, but at this point if you don’t care about these television shows on film, which may be a compliment as TV has gotten better than film has over the past decade or so, then you probably never will.

    Will we ever see a character study superhero movie? Maybe. Unbreakable sorta was. Will that automatically make it better than what we have now? Those are more interesting questions than making lazy comments like “trailer is whatever” and calling it a day as if you’re some film aficionado because you question their motivations for making these movies, as if you’re making any sort of revelation to me.

    The facts are people by the masses want to see these movies in theaters. Poo pooing them as if they’re like any other franchise like Transformers or Pirates of the Caribbean is dismissive. That’s fine if you want to go that way, but excuse me if I don’t take your “criticism” very seriously.

  45. Hcat says:

    “That’s a very small minded way of thinking about entertainment if you’re just judging this stuff on them surface, which is seems like many do.”

    Wait, it is small minded to judge these by the quality of the filmmaking instead of the amount of the box office? You ask if everything needs to be an Oscar movie to be great when nobody is arguing that only Oscar level films are worthwhile or that comic book movies should be removed from existence. One person claimed you marvel fans are extremely twitchy when it comes to criticism, which you have proved correct, and the other stated that the creative process that produces these is more in line with planning a television season than a stand alone film, which you seem to agree with. Your failure to see these as another franchise (admittedly a meticulously planned, spectacularly ambitious and remarkably successful franchise) is your failing not theirs. To inflate these to a higher plain of existence than say gangster movies of the 40s, spy movies of the 60s, or action comedies of the 80s is shortsighted.

    And this is coming from someone who fully believes a superhero film will win best picture somewhere down the line.

  46. MarkVH says:

    Brack, I’m not quite sure I’m understanding your argument re: box office. “The facts are people by the masses want to see these movies in theaters.” Does this mean that they should automatically be taken seriously as cinema? People by the masses also elected Donald Trump president, and I don’t really take him seriously, though I guess I kind of have to given how much potential he has to fuck things up.

    And I’m open to the idea that there can be great superhero movies. There already have been! I genuinely think Raimi’s Spider-Man 2 is a great movie, and one that I actually cared about. And I’m not a huge fan of Nolan’s Batman trilogy, but I admired that they really went for something.

    All that said, I just don’t think there’s been a great Marvel Studios movie yet – Avengers 1 is probably my favorite so far, and I barely remember a lot of what happens in it – and I’m skeptical that there can be under the current model of franchise/brand management. I’m happy to be wrong, though, and hope I am. I’d love for Black Panther to prove me so, given how much I heart Coogler. When it comes to franchise filmmaking, Creed is better, as far as I’m concerned, than anything in the Marvel universe or recent Star Wars run. If you want to talk about great commercial filmmaking, that’s what it looks like to me.

    At the end of the day, I just can’t get excited by the Infinity War trailer. Looks fun, but the vibe I’m getting is very same-old, same-old. I’d love to be wrong. Maybe I will be!

  47. MarkVH says:

    Follow-up note: I remember Faraci back in the day comparing modern superhero movies to the Westerns of the ’50s. When they make a Marvel Studios movie with half the artistry of a Ford, Hawks or Anthony Mann western, give me a call. I’ll be waiting.

  48. brack says:

    Hcat – Wes Anderson and Martin Scorsese were mentioned, hence my Oscar comment. Seems warranted enough, no? And I never disputed that these films aren’t part of a franchise, the MCU, right. It’s not my failing, that’s yours. But I do dispute that they’re lesser films because they’re part of a franchise, one specific franchise mind you, which seems to be an old hat argument that rarely is backed up with much substance on here, and they are way, way better than those GENRES you’re mentioning. Again, I’m simply talking about MCU, not ALL superhero/comic movies. You’re making an argument about genre where I never did.

    Mark – there’s no Electoral College of moviegoers that elected Marvel films to be the winners, so that’s a horrible analogy. If it was just a popularity contest, there would be no President Trump. Again, you too are talking about a genre, not a franchise, which aren’t mutually exclusive.

    I find it mind boggling that so many of you who don’t seem to like these movies continue to keep seeing them. It’s a weird form of masochistic behavior.

  49. MarkVH says:

    Enough people voted for Trump to make the popular vote a lot closer than it should have been.

    “Again, you too are talking about a genre, not a franchise, which aren’t mutually exclusive.”

    No, I’m talking about a franchise. And I like some Marvel Studios movies! Enough to hope that one day there’s a great one.

  50. MarkVH says:

    “But I do dispute that they’re lesser films because they’re part of a franchise.”

    They’re not lesser films because they’re part of a franchise. They’re lesser films because they’re just kinda not that great, and happen to be part of a franchise that, to date, has turned out mostly not-that-great superhero movies.

  51. brack says:

    Ragnarok and The Winter Soldier were very good to great. Especially Ragnarok. The only ones I found to be pretty lesser films were The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, and Thor The Dark World, and even those had their moments.

    I’m not trying to argue just to argue, but what would make one of these movies “great” for you all? Based on your tastes, as far as I could tell, it’s never going to happen, as it seems your expectations are far too high for it to ever happen for you. I couldn’t care less if you like these movies or not. But I personally would rather talk about things I enjoy instead of vice versa. Life is too short to talk about your disappointments.

  52. Amblinman says:

    “I find it mind boggling that so many of you who don’t seem to like these movies continue to keep seeing them. It’s a weird form of masochistic behavior.“

    I think you’re confusing masochistic behavior with “lack of cult-like devotion.” I’ve seen all the Marvel movies. Some are good, most are just okay. That there are a lot of them and they’re popular doesn’t change the level of filmmaking brought to bear. Great filmmaking often comes from risky choices. Disney would never allow a risky choice as there’s too much money at stake. Thus these films will never rise beyond okay-good.

  53. Js partisan says:

    If you think I have cult like devotion, then you’re not paying attention. This is what I’ve personally been hoping for; the moment I finished reading West Coast Avengers #1. I also remember the countless discussions in comic book stores, with people stating an Avengers film would never happen. That it’s going to happen FOUR FUCKING TIMES…is just the fucking best.

    Now, if you want to get into a whole thing about taste, then bring it. I live for all film, and the MSCU is just a part of it. Again, I love the Infinity War trailer, but I really loved that Mary Magdelen trailer more… Except for the leads being white. That’s just… Barf.

  54. Amblinman says:

    Wasn’t responding to you, JS. You’re a mark for Marvel but I get it. When I was a kid I read all 800 Spider-Man titles, every X-Man book, both coasts of Avengers, etc etc. I’m as impressed as you are that they’ve created a franchise that mirrors comic book titles with giant crossover events. The final shot of the Avengers trailer could have been a panel from an issue of the original Secret Wars, and it gave me wood.

    I just wish there was *great* filmmaking in some of it. Something that rivals any chase sequence in Fury Road or the first T-Rex attack in Jurassic Park or or or. Something iconic. JL is not well written but damn do I wish a marvel movie would send a charge through me like the moment Superman locks eyes with The Flash.

    Wouldn’t it be cool to find awe in a Marvel movie?

  55. Geoff says:

    Brack I literally listed a fraction of the story in ‘Civil War and that’s kind of the problem….if you’re telling me that’s the whole story, then there’s about 15 other unmentioned major characters who were doing SOMETHING in that movie right? :)

    I delved into my issues with the movie and I’m not going revisit them but NONE of you folks are even addressing my assertion that the Russos are doing this a THIRD time now….and already shooting the fourth. If higher caliber directors like Chris Nolan or Sam Raimi couldn’t really score the hat-trick then what makes THEM so special to be able to pull it off? With an increasing scale, giant budget, over-sized cast, and higher expectations no less….

    Yeah I get it, the 90% RT score is already set in stone, the early tweets will call it “fun, Best MCU film ever!” and the public overall will show up en masse on opening weekend and likely enjoy it….just like they did for Jurassic World, Finding Dory, Minions, Furious 7, Rogue One, etc. Maybe I’ll see it, maybe I won’t….I was actually proud of myself that I had the restraint to forgo Guardians of the Galaxy 2 since I really wasn’t that crazy about the first one and the only reason I saw Spiderman Homecoming was because my youngest daughter really wanted me to take her. And I WANTED to see the new Thor and I want to see Black Panther. The MCU is an institution now which can’t be avoided….like The Walking Dead or Taylor Swift yippee. Doesn’t make these films particularly memorable and I cannot understand how SO many die hard fans of THIS particular franchise cling to the successful box office as some kind of validation AND a measure of “quality” no less.

    I’ve been a die hard James Bond fan all of my life and I will admit that at least half of the films in that franchise are mediocre AT BEST….every once in a while there’s a Skyfall or License to Kill or The Spy Who Loved Me that I just fucking love and that keeps me happy. Most Bond fans are like me too apparently….Die Another Day was hugely successful but the reception from Bond fans was that it was shit so the challenge was laid down to ION to do something better….four years later we got Casino Royale. Same thing with X-Men – X-Men The Last Stand was the highest grossing film in the franchise but the fans fucking hated it….five years later, X Men: First Class. The fans loathed X-Men Origins: Wolverine even though THAT made money too….seven years later they got the Deadpool they always wanted and it took two tries with Mangold but eight years later they were rewarded with Logan. You can BE a fan of a property and still challenge the folks creating the content! 😉 I just can’t understand why this way of thinking is anathema to Marvel fans….and it’s not particularly good for the rest of us who want MORE sometimes.

    And Brack, I wasn’t knocking the overseas box office of ANY MCU film – these films clean up in Europe, China, wherever else. All I was saying is that it was HIGHLY likely that Solo was going to siphon off some of ‘Infinity War’s grosses JUST as Tomorrowland nipped a bit off of ‘Ultron and Alice 2 nipped a bit off of ‘Civil War and Pirates 5 nipped a chunk off of ‘Guardians 2. And in WHAT world is The Incredibles 2 and a young Han Solo movie not the same EXACT target audience as an Avengers sequel?? :)

    Disney isn’t trying to grow these properties into something unique and special, they’re playing for market DOMINANCE right now….is there any doubt about that given what we’ve heard about theater demands for The Last Jedi? And more power to them if they want to keep doing that…personally just me, I’ll STILL take ONE Wonder Woman over a Doctor Strange, Finding Dory, and Rogue One any day of the week.

    We’re approaching the end of the year now and is ANY ONE talking about Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2 right now?? Twenty years from now, you’re going to have a whole generation of female students film schools inspired by Wonder Woman….will they even remember the latest Spiderman reboot which came out the same year and made $60 million more worldwide?? :)

    That said, I’m already sick of the big movies for the time being and I’ll see the new Star Wars more out of obligation than excitement…who’s seen The Disaster Artist though? Bring on The Shape of Water, it’s time for some real sustenance again in my movie diet. 😉

  56. KrazyEyes says:

    Sorry, if this has been made abundantly clear from past films I missed but where is Samuel L. Jackson in all this? I hate to think that the inclusion of the Black Panther cast filled up Marvel’s African American quota.

  57. Hcat says:

    The secret wars reference above makes me hope Thanos drops a mountain on them at some point, loved that mini-series (though the X-men were poorly represented).

    Makes me wonder though since Marvel is looking for characters to introduce and it sounds like they are phasing out some of their bedrock (older) heroes, was She-hulk included in the FF rights or can they still call her up for the MCU?

  58. Js partisan says:

    Man, I don’t need those moments, because we get the other moments from those movies in the MSCU. Those other moments, the humor and the shiny, mean more to me. You know… Different strokes and all.

    Geoff, that last paragraph is so douchy. It’s all film, and it’s all art. Hell. Most of the damn time, those films are almost more emotionally manipulative than any blockbuster film.

  59. Geoff says:

    I get that JS but when SO much of these bigger films have a sameness to them, it’s nice to see something different on a different scale – just saw Lady Bird and The Big Sick this past week, nice change of pace.

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