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David Poland

By David Poland poland@moviecitynews.com

Weekend Estimates by Automated Suit Klady

Weekend Estimatest 2017-07-09 at 10.24.40 AM

Spider-Man Homecoming‘s opening turned out to be… predictable, but in a not-so-great way. The opening 3-day comes in just above the original, then-record-setting, Spider-Man opening. Technically, it opened better than either Amazing Spider-Man movie, but I would argue that the first ASM opened stronger.

Of the three $100m+ openers this summer, Guardians 2 did 2.6x opening day, Wonder Woman did 2.7x opening day, and Spider-Man: Homecoming, 2.3x Friday.

What is tricky in discussing this is that a $100 million opening is always good. Obviously. But in discussing a class of film — which is more limited than media seems to believe — a realistic perspective requires you check overall reality and that analyze in the context of that class.

For instance, Man of Steel had a better opening weekend (if you count its Thursday night) than this Spider-Man did, and was run out of town, as Amazing Spider-Man was. This opening is well behind Suicide Squad or Deadpool.

What is a reasonable expectation for a third reboot of Spider-Man with Iron Man by his side, especially in advertising? And how much will come in from the rest of the world? (It started with a reported – by Sony – $140m international this weekend.)

I thought the movie was entertaining, as most people seem to. But is it sticky? And what happens moving forward? The two Avengers: Infinity War movies are due in 2018 and 2019, with a 2nd New Spidey due later in the summer of 2019 as of this writing. Will it move? The mega-success of The Avengers led to the next Iron Man movie doubling its worldwide gross. How will it affect the box office of the next Spidey?

There is no question of this version of Spider-Man failing. It’s a win. But the idea of Marvel coming and waving fairy dust over the franchise and muscling it up significantly is not looking as clear as was hoped.

Could this be the Batman Begins that leads to The Dark Knight, to use another franchise rebooting history? That is the hope. Spider-Man, in theory, should be a billion dollar character. Consistently over $850 million will be good enough. But that has not been an easy bar for Marvel without the collective of Avengers (inc. the Civil War Avengers movie that used a Cap title) or Iron Man. Guardians 2 is the new high bar, with $857m worldwide and more to come.

Sony has experience with a situation like this… Bond. When they got distribution rights for Casino Royale, the franchise leapt 39%. It fell back with Quantum of Solace. Then, BOOM, Skyfall generated $500 million more than any other Bond film. Then down a little, though still 2nd best ever Bond gross by almost $300m. Broccoli and Wilson really control the franchise, which Sony pays for and distributes. MGM remains a partner, like Marvel on Spidey.

Spidey: Homecoming isn’t going to improve 39% over ASM2. No one is going to be sent home because they can’t stop crying though. And the real hope remains that BOOM. Look for it in 2019 or 2021. And then we can judge the success of this arraigned marriage.

Wonder Woman should pass Guardians 2 for top summer film next weekend with the strongest legs so far.

The Big Sick had a great weekend expansion, indicating that it could break out beyond the teens. $11k per on 326 is a nice number. Turning my head in terms of Oscar potential.

84 Responses to “Weekend Estimates by Automated Suit Klady”

  1. GSpot 3000 says:

    Just posted on Friday thread, but now makes more sense here:

    I’m not a Marvel fanboy by any stretch, but I thought this Spidey was head and shoulders above any previous Spidey film before it. An effective crowd pleaser, expertly designed to make you smile. Even though its weekend number ended up down from where they thought on Friday night, I’m thinking this guy could take advantage of a weak August to end up making a surprising run for the summer crown.

    What do you guys think?

  2. Thorough Henry says:

    A multiplier under 2.5 for Spidey is very surprising. I expected it to be higher considering the positive reviews. Any thoughts on why it was so low?

  3. Sideshow Bill says:

    Maybe a bit of “Spider-Man fatigue,” thorough Henry? ASM2 was so bad maybe some people were wary, despite the great impression Holland made in Civil War. Good word of mouth should keep it alive and well.

    Nice holds for WW and Baby Driver. Would love to see BD hit $100 million just because but that seems out of reach. Still, Wright finally has legit hit. I hope they don’t go to the sequel well though as has been rumoured. As much as I loved it I think it works as a stand alone piece. Don’t scuff it up.

    It’ll be quite a story if WW takes the Summer crown. Makes me smile. Great story all around. There have been some keepers this Summer and we still have a ways to go.

  4. Bulldog68 says:

    Unless Apes or Dunkirk smashes all expectations, looks like summer’s 1,2,3 spots will be filled by superheroes. Glad they were all enjoyable on different levels but this result just means more studios will be chasing this kind of success. 3 comic book movies will have soaked up more than a billion summer dollars domestically. It’s a bit bittersweet.

  5. jspartisan says:

    It’s not bittersweet. It is what it is. Plus, they are all three different types of films, that just happened to features superheroes. Hell. The Guardians aren’t really heroes. They are just the guardians. Nevertheless, this whole Summer was booked like shit, and that should be fucking bittersweet to all of us. We all love movies, we all want diverse fucking Summers, and this one was just a fart in church. Here’s hoping, that they do better. I doubt it, but that’s where we are at right now.

  6. Night Owl says:

    Next summer could be a similar deal with superhero movies but has more chances not to be. The Jurassic World sequel (ugh) will probably own one of those slots and I’m assuming even if it is a dumpster fire the Han Solo movie breaks $400 million….although with Deadpool 2 opening a week (a week!) later it has a rough road to travel. But even if the superheroes dominate we have Infinity War, Incredibles 2, Deadpool 2, and Ant-man and the Wasp, a pretty varied group.

  7. Big G says:

    So will Guardians 2 be able to crawl past the $400 million mark. That should be interesting to watch.

  8. Heather says:

    With the last couple of days of writings regarding Homecoming vs Amazing Spider-Man 2, one aspect that Dave hasn’t acknowledged is the domestic vs foreign total. If Homecoming does $125 million more domestically and stays even at international that’s a huge win for Homecoming. Yes it’s “just” $125 million more worldwide, but as Dave often writes those domestic dollars have much more value.

  9. Bulldog68 says:

    @Big G: No way with $846k this weekend there’s no way it has $15m left in the tank. WW on the other hand I think should squeak by.

    @JS: it is bittersweet to me because I’m sure there are literally thousands of great scripts that will never be made because studios feel superhero stuff is a license to print money when both good and bad can make coin, especially if they keep their budgets under control.

    But it’s also not all their fault, when audiences fail to reward arguably good original movies that don’t have someone with a cape in it, the studios go “aw fuck it, why bother trying.”

    The thing about the trajectory of the superhero movies is much like the Fast & Furious franchise, they are learning their lessons and get better at everything, better marketing, better scripts, better giving the audience what they want while pleasing the critics too. Some Oscar bait movies would kill for the Critic scores that Logan, WW, and Spider-Man have put up,

    Here’s hoping that the same dedication and study that studios have put into comic book movies are directed toward other genres as well. I’d love a great western, buddy cop, serial killer, gothic horror blockbuster about now.

  10. Sideshow Bill says:

    What Bulldog said.

    I love superhero and comic book movies. But I don’t need one every 2 months. I would like to see more thought put into the horror and action genre. Action-adventure is in a bad place right now, it seems to me. Unless it has a superhero in it that is. Where is the next Die Hard or Lethal Weapon or Raiders of the Lost Ark? Something that transcends the genre.

    A big, well-made gothic horror sounds great too. It’s my favorite genre. There’s a lot of good stuff out there but also way too mush junk.

    I know some people here didn’t like Baby Driver but it’s encouraging that something small and original is doing well. I fully intend to support The Big Sick when I can.

    I finally took the plunge and watched The Wailing last night. What a great, great horror film that was. I was engrossed for the entire runtime, and I’ll puzzle over that ending happily for the rest of my life. Hollywood could never produce something like that right now. Thank god we have other sources to look to.

  11. Doug R says:

    Eventually someone will discover The Stainless Steel Rat.

  12. Mike says:

    Yes! Now I want a stainless steel rat movie!

  13. Triple Option says:

    @ GSpot 3000, I responded in the other thread but will remark here as well. I thought Spidey Homecoming was very good and the audience I saw it with absolutely enjoyed it. More than any other film I can remember in quite some time. Although, not every movie has a chance for positive audible responses such as this one.

    I didn’t hate either of the Amazing Spiderman films. I think my response coming out of both was “that was great but why bother??” I can barely remember two things out of them.

    I do believe they earned some goodwill back with this one. I wonder how much creative push Amy Pascal had behind this or how much she was now willing to sign off on now that her job wasn’t on the line. The last two amazing spidey movies were so safe they were draining. It’s no wonder this one didn’t make more. I do expect the next Spidey movie to do significantly better. That is if they don’t burn him out like a middle reliever in consecutive appearances. I thought Iron Man in this one was fine but I don’t need to see him in every film. Or multi avengers in each individual character film. I’m pretty sure the days of single stars are over but as long as they don’t have hammed up cameos or plots that fall too formulaic, I’d think the Spidey franchise will be actively rejuvenated.

  14. leahnz says:

    since in the other thread ‘S-M homecoming’ was being specifically compared to WW and Logan, and given that at both those movies people were actually moved and emotional through to teary-eyed and crying (going on from what i saw/heard and has been said/written about – particularly WW, with the sight of a woman superhero entering the fray and saving the day like a fucking boss so rare it’s pretty much never been seen before, maybe think about that duders who’ve seen guys do it on screen probably A HUNDRED TIMES now), how does this factor into ‘enjoyment’? personally i don’t give a shit about ‘positive audible responses’, certainly having fuck-all to do with how good a movie is; i mean ‘enjoying’ marvel’s newest megabudget slick shit high-school movie for boys with all the depth of a kiddie pool, is this really a profound yard stick? i say that as someone who’s seen spider-man and mildly enjoyed it. let’s reboot this shit until the sun super-giants, a couple thousand times at least

    Edited for clarity after typing that out

  15. David Poland says:

    Funny to agree with JS Partisan on comic book movies… there is nothing to complain about with their success. It’s not a tragedy. It’s just another part of the business.

  16. David Poland says:

    Agree with Leah too.

  17. leahnz says:

    superhero/comic book movies are today’s action movies, there’s no way around it

  18. palmtree says:

    To answer the question in the other thread, yes, the new Spidey is fun and enjoyable. And I’m glad it’s going to do well.

    But it’s really not all that ambitious, and yet it still doesn’t totally succeed, even on its own terms. I’d say Wonder Woman wins the debate by a sizable margin.

  19. amblinman says:

    “But it’s really not all that ambitious, and yet it still doesn’t totally succeed, even on its own terms. I’d say Wonder Woman wins the debate by a sizable margin.”

    WW isn’t ambitious. I guess the WW 1 backdrop is supposed to be Important Context, so = ambitious?? (Captain America had Nazis! MORE IMPORTANT!)

    These are superhero movies. WW nor Spidey are trying to do anything but be what they are. Spidey is far more successful. It’s entertaining, funny, and the performances are pretty wonderful up and down. Gadot still sucks as an actress, and the villains of Huston and Burn Face Lady might as well have been screaming “LOOK AT ME I’M CACKLING” over their scenes.

    So I dunno what debate WW won. If you enjoyed it more, mazel. I’m okay with you liking a thing better than I did.

  20. amblinman says:

    @Triple:

    “I thought Iron Man in this one was fine but I don’t need to see him in every film”

    HATE HATED HATED his appearances. I found him more obnoxious than fun, and I’m tired of Downey in general. It would be nice if he went out and took on a role of something more interesting than I’M ROBERT DOWNEY JR. I do not think he or his Iron Man have aged well. It doesn’t help that Marvel basically doesn’t even want him wearing the armor for more than a few seconds at a time so the hero in and of itself has completely become besides the point.

  21. palmtree says:

    Well, it was a debate because you said I should watch it before making judgments about Spidey. And now I have.

    Spidey isn’t that good at being what it’s supposed to be. Funny and entertaining, yes. But story-wise it left him with scraps. The movie seems to say, “This is a minor work within a bigger story,” which keeps it on a leash and prevents bolder choices. Not a great starting point.

    WW isn’t ambitious because it deals with a world war. It’s ambitious because it is engaging with the complexities of our world. At each point in the story, the characters have to make very difficult choices and those choices represent different philosophies and have consequences for those characters and the story. I didn’t see that level of story ambition in Spidey.

    What WW is attempting to be is more interesting, and it also has the more challenging ambition of being the first great female superhero movie. Spidey is doing a fine job too, but its path is pretty well trod.

    And Gal Gadot may not be a great actress, but she’s great as Wonder Woman. And it helps that she’s in a better movie too.

  22. hcat says:

    Amblin, Don’t you think it is probably Downey’s decision how much time he spends in plain clothes in the movie? I remember years ago when these rights were spread amongst the different studios (I think New Line had Iron Man at one point) that they thought no one would ever want to play Iron Man since their face would be obscured for half the screen time. At one time I believe Cruise was circling the role but didn’t do it for that exact reason.

    And this is an odd distinction and I am sure Uni wasn’t hoping for this but it looks like Despicible will be the first film to land in the 200 million dollar range in the past three summers. The groupings of the blockbusters seem to have gotten strangely clustered in the past few years.

  23. hcat says:

    “Gal Gadot may not be a great actress”

    Keanu Reeves has had a decades long film career and I even get excited about upcoming projects of his, but a great actor? Gadot will do fine.

  24. amblinman says:

    “WW isn’t ambitious because it deals with a world war. It’s ambitious because it is engaging with the complexities of our world. At each point in the story, the characters have to make very difficult choices and those choices represent different philosophies and have consequences for those characters and the story. I didn’t see that level of story ambition in Spidey.”

    YOu mean other than a 15 year old kid who has no idea how his powers are supposed to work facing down actual life and death decisions that impact others Vs an immortal superhuman Amazon warrior who can race across a battlefield without a hint of concern that a bullet might catch her? WW doesn’t have a single moment of real human vulnerability or doubt that comes close to Parker being trapped under the rubble when he’s screaming for help. That was amazing and terrifying.

    “Complexities of our world”? Keaton’s Vulture is has so many more layers and actual reasoning behind what he does vs Vague Nazi Guy and Mrs Burnsed, who play exactly one note the entire film.

    Spidey is just straight up the better written of the two. There isn’t a single scene in WW nearly as well written or played than the conversation in the car between Holland and Keaton. Keaton is given more menace and humanity in that one exchange than all of Huston, Anaya, and Thewlis’s screen time combined.

    So, I guess, agree to disagree?

    @hcat, it’s entirely possible but I don’t know. It’s not unusual, actually. Most superhero movies in which the lead is fully masked wind up with the mask ripped off so the studio gets the most bang for the buck out of their face. Keaton’s Batman movies did this, as did Maguire’s Spider-Man to name two. So I don’t necessarily blame Marvel for wanting more Downey in a given scene vs “Iron Man” but then again it would be nice every once in a while to be reminded that Iron Man was a pretty cool dude all by his lonesome.

  25. Stella's Boy says:

    I like the villains in Wonder Woman and think the performances are good. They are evil sure but there isn’t that much overacting or mustache twirling. They work for the type of movie they are in. But I do think it also showcases a problem I have with many superhero movies and action movies in general. Most of the time the villains are lame and boring. I just saw John Wick 2, and while I enjoyed it a lot, the main bad guy is pathetically dull (would have been better if Common was the main bad guy as the scenes with him and Wick are great). That’s also true of a lot of the superhero movies. No memorable villains, the kind you love to hate, the kind where you stand up and cheer their demise. Boyd Holbrook in Logan is a little better than the norm. I did loathe that guy and it was nice to really hate a villain.

  26. palmtree says:

    Sure, agree to disagree. But for the sake of clarity…

    Yes, Spidey is in mortal danger, but so what? A movie about someone who fails a lot isn’t inherently good or interesting. What does he stand for? What does he learn from his mistakes (other than just how to use the suit)? The way I see it he pretty much just stands for wanting to do good so that Tony will accept him. It’s just not very compelling…to me.

    Yes, WW is not in mortal danger, but she stands for something. She believes the world is black and white and must learn to see the grayness. And this conflict infuses almost every moment. It’s great storytelling.

    Yes, she can deflect bullets, but her really compelling superpower is fighting the patriarchy. Her learning about how women are supposed to dress is just heartbreaking and hilarious and powerful. And that’s why No Man’s Land is so amazing too.

    Spidey never reaches for a No Man’s Land moment. And that’s fine, it wasn’t his turn perhaps. But I’m sure he will get it at some point…

  27. jspartisan says:

    Two things: never forget, that Sony wanted RDJ in this movie. They wanted Iron Man in this film, to connect to the movie. Also, Iron Man is still a fucking wonderful character and they need to figure out a way to keep Tony going in a younger body :D! If I were Marvel and had a reality gem to play with… that’s how I’d end Infinity War. Nevertheless, RDJ is a beloved actor, a beloved part of the MSCU, and tying him and Peter together. Gives us the father figure, that Spidey has never ever had on film.

    Two: Tony Stark is Iron Man. He doesn’t need the suit. He’s Iron Man with or without it. That’s the whole point of 3, that Joss Whedon totally ignored, but has been remembered from Civil War onward!

    Three: SB, John not killing Common’s character, has to get a pay off the finale. Also, the assassin world, the grand council, and all of their bullshit, are the villain of John Wick 2. He was out, but he couldn’t escape their bullshit. Now, he’s fucking excommunicado, so the entire world is against him. That’s a better villain, but I never get this whole MARVEL VILLAIN thing. Marvel Comics, are based around the heroes, being their own worst enemies a lot of the time. DC comics are about making villains a thing. Marvel Comics, has always been about a disparate group of people overcoming their own shit, to beat down on villains, who usually have less than great motives.

    Why do they keep making Doctor Doom, a face all the time? He’s a better hero, who is a fuck up, then a Latvarian villain who wants world domination.

  28. hcat says:

    Off topic but it looks like Craig is back for at least one more time as Bond which I am over the moon about just on the basis of symmetry. We have had a one time, two time, four time, six and seven time Bonds, so I needed Craig back this last time before handing it off for a trilogy to someone else and then they can start over. I am not OCD or anything but for some reason this just feels right.

  29. Stella's Boy says:

    Yeah that’s all well and good but there is still a central villain in John Wick 2, and he is lame. I still like the movie a lot, and I hope Common does return as he is awesome.

    You are more well-versed in comics and comic book movies than I am, so I come at those movies from an entirely different place. When I see an action movie or a superhero movie, I am hoping for a memorable villain. To me that’s a big part of the experience. And they rarely deliver. But a movie can still be good without a great villain. Happens all the time.

  30. leahnz says:

    they really don’t do movie villains like they used to

    the whole point of WW is that diana is not a typical human, she’s the contrast to humanity, the vessel of idealism against which human nature and the horrors of war are explored. her arc, as the contrast to steve trevor’s jaded pragmatism (and ultimately Ares cynisim), wherein she must learn to come to terms with complexities of human nature and its messy shades of grey, is so much more powerful than any thematic elements in the juvenile spider-man its not even in the same stadium.

    there are multiple scenes in WW better written and played than the car scene mentioned, in fact several between diana and steve alone, the movie’s adult romance providing the backdrop for steve’s arc as a disillusioned soldier finding redemption in diana’s leadership and idealism, and diana’s arc in learning about human nature/emotions and ultimately mortal death (then there’s diana and Hippolyta/chief/sameer/spud — charlie’s PTSD arc alone is better than anything in S-M)

    also diana does experience vulnerability, not least of which when she is bound by ares, in fear, doubt and pain, and finally realises upon seeing chief, sami and spud huddle together against the odds on the airfield when steve dies, understanding what is so precious about humanity, our love and camaraderie, and only then does she summon her higher power to fight on.

  31. jspartisan says:

    HC, I didn’t want him back, because I am the sucker who loves Spectre. It ends with him finding love, and walking off into the distance. If he comes back, that negates the entire of ending of that movie, and I hate when they negate entire endings of movies!

    Craig is probably coming back, because let’s be honest: they can’t figure out a successor, and they probably need another Bond out for next year to stretch the search out. It would be interesting, if Craig’s last film, is the one that confirms James Bond is just a title that is passed down. It’s the only way to save the ending of Spectre, and would blow people’s minds.

  32. amblinman says:

    “Yes, WW is not in mortal danger, but she stands for something. She believes the world is black and white and must learn to see the grayness. And this conflict infuses almost every moment. It’s great storytelling.”

    But it doesn’t change her behavior one iota. She would still run into battles left and right, throwing her lasso around. The film ends with her doing *exactly* what she said she was going to do from the start: kill Ares. She has no arc. She has the same beliefs, and acts accordingly, from the beginning of the film to the end. Okay, so she sees that Ares death can’t stop all war. So? Nothing changes for her character. She will continue leaping off buildings into fist fights.

    The point about mortal danger is that it actually changes Parker’s understanding of just what’s at stake. He learns the hard way on the ferry that his involvement could have dire consequences for people who can’t swing out of harm’s way. The rubble sequence showed him his own safety shouldn’t be taken for granted. He decides to persevere regardless because the writing is SHOWING US “with great power comes great responsibility.”

    BTW, at what point is Steve jaded or a pragmatist? You guys are grafting stuff on to WW that literally isn’t there. He is shown to be an idealist in every way. He continues to throw himself in harm’s way specifically to try an effect the out come of a WORLD WAR. He has no need for redemption at the end, as he was in the process of risking his life when we meet him, and continues throughout the film.

    Sorry, folks. I get it. WW has to be “Important”. Shame the movie doesn’t live up to it.

  33. Stella's Boy says:

    I feel like we saw different movies. I never once thought of Steve as a total idealist. Not for a second. He talks about not wanting to fight and how you can’t save everyone. You are going to great lengths to shit on WW. Diana has no arc? Come on. That’s just silly. We get it. You think Spiderman is wonderful and WW is overrated.

  34. palmtree says:

    “He learns the hard way on the ferry that his involvement could have dire consequences for people who can’t swing out of harm’s way.”

    Yeah, and that story just isn’t all that compelling. Learning that people can die isn’t exactly an epiphany for him, is it? No, his true ephipany is that he has to learn to lay low and grow-up with his powers, which again…a fine story, but not terribly ambitious.

    WW changes several times during the course of the film. In fact, her compelling arc is one reason she is viewed as rescuing the DCEU. Weird that you don’t see that, but again, agree to disagree.

  35. Peebo Bryson says:

    The Hot Blog where adults debating the merits of movies made for 14 year-olds never stops.

  36. Pete B says:

    “Why do they keep making Doctor Doom, a face all the time? He’s a better hero, who is a fuck up, then a Latvarian villain who wants world domination.”

    Sorry JS, but that is complete and utter blasphemy!
    Doctor Doom is the greatest villain in all of comics.

  37. amblinman says:

    “I feel like we saw different movies. I never once thought of Steve as a total idealist. Not for a second. He talks about not wanting to fight and how you can’t save everyone. You are going to great lengths to shit on WW. Diana has no arc? Come on. That’s just silly. We get it. You think Spiderman is wonderful and WW is overrated.”

    Correct. Feel free to avert your eyes if an opinion you don’t agree with appears on a screen you’re looking at.

    Yes, and the movie as written does such a good job of underlining Steve’s pragmatism, we meet him as he’s just risked his life fleeing from a German base in which he just blew up plans for a chemical weapon he found particularly horrifying. And then he spends the next 15 minutes or so arguing that he has to get back to the UK to warn everyone about said chemical weapon. Then once there, he decides to go against his orders so as to blow up that chemical weapon.

    Oh my god – he’s sooo jaded and cynical!

    I’ve explained why I didn’t see any arc for WW. If you feel differently, that’s fine. But “that’s just silly” isn’t an argument. It’s lack of one.

    I’m not going to great lengths to shit on anything. We’re having a conversation about movies, I’m explaining my position. That’s what we should do, no? You don’t agree with me, and that’s fine. I liked WW just fine but evidently I could go the opposite way with your comment and suggest you guys are going out of your way to act as if WW is a modern masterpiece destined to change how cinema is perceived for all time. It would be a mischaracterization on my part to do that. Shame you don’t have the same restraint.

    @Palm can’t help ya. I hear you. You didn’t find the movie compelling.

    WW is viewed as “rescuing the DCEU” because it’s making a fuck ton of money. Don’t confuse that with artistic merit. If you’re insisting that the movie is so popular because WW has this amazing arc that everyone is latching on to vs “It was so cool when she kickpunched all the Germans”, I dunno what to tell you.

  38. Stella's Boy says:

    I never described him as jaded or cynical. I said I never saw him as completely idealistic. And I simply don’t understand how one can see the movie and conclude that Diana literally has no arc. There’s a difference of opinion and then there’s feeling like someone saw a different movie entirely or is just being aggressively nitpicky. You seem to have it out for WW, as evidenced by your comment to palmtree. So what artistic merit could never ever apply to WW, but it can to Spiderman? I just listened to a podcast about WW (WAMU’s 1A) and over and over again people commented on being drawn to Diana and her arc so you seem way off there.

  39. amblinman says:

    Okay, tell me WW’s arc then? She started the film wanting to kill Ares, and ended the film wanting to kill Ares. She started the film wanting to protect humans from war, she ended the film wanting to protect humans from war.

    “You seem to have it out for WW, as evidenced by your comment to palmtree. So what artistic merit could never ever apply to WW, but it can to Spiderman?”

    This is just dumb. Why do I have it out for WW? We have been discussing WW vs Homecoming. Should I have commented on, I dunno, Transformers? I’m simply responding to exactly the conversation taking place.

    My stance on WW is pretty simple: it’s perfectly fine, slightly boring superhero movie. I found Spidey to have more depth, and work much better as *entertainment*. I’ve explained pretty thoroughly *why* I feel this way on both ends. But this is the internet, so the “zero sum thinking’ starts getting in the way.

  40. palmtree says:

    I could make the same argument for Peter too. He starts wanting to be liked by Tony and ends the same.

    WW’s arc is one of an extraordinary person learning to live in an ordinary world. Her ideals are constantly challenged until she is proven wrong. By the end of the movie, she has embraced the ordinary world in pursuit of more realisitic justice.

    btw, her arc has been covered in much more depth by articles and videos out there. And the consensus is that WW has broken the DC mold by giving us a character we care about that has an amazing arc.

    And WW earning a ton of money is true, but the other DC movies earned a lot too. No, WW is saving the DCEU because people are connecting to it genuinely. That’s why it has WOM and legs. That’s why it’s making way more money than expected.

  41. amblinman says:

    “I could make the same argument for Peter too. He starts wanting to be liked by Tony and ends the same.”

    No, you couldn’t because Parker turned down Stark’s offer at the end. So, fart noise?

    You’re literally just making shit up now because a stranger on the internet didn’t like your superhero movie as much as you did.

  42. Chris says:

    “Peebo Bryson says:

    July 10, 2017 at 11:35 am

    The Hot Blog where adults debating the merits of movies made for 14 year-olds never stops.”

    Your “I’m Above It All” medal is in the mail.

  43. palmtree says:

    Close but no cigar. Peter turns it down and then says, “I passed the test, right?” (i.e. he turns it down because he thinks that will please Tony.) Thanks for playing tho.

  44. jspartisan says:

    Dave has a budget for medals now? When the hell did that happen, and why wasn’t I INFORMED? And you know what? If they were just made for 14 year olds. They wouldn’t be billion dollar plus properties. If you are looking for something that has made money, but is for 14 year olds. GO WATCH THAT TERRIBLE AVATAR MOVIE! AVATAR HATRED CALLBACK!

    Pete, I agree, but they keep making Victor a face. Time and time again, they like making him a good guy. He’s rather dynamic in that way, but his villainy hasn’t been as well written, as his heroism lately.

    HC, I fucking love Spectre, and Craig coming back kills that ending. He doesn’t get to walk away, with the love he sorely needed, to heal his damn tortured soul! The only way this makes any sense, is if they can’t figure out who to continue the series with; and Nolan has decided to direct the next one. Whatever happens, they should use this as the opportunity, to make it official that James Bond is just a title. That way, Craig gets to walk away, and we get the new one at the end receiving the title. If they figure that out in the NEXT YEAR AND A HALF!

  45. Triple Option says:

    @Chris

    To be fair, this one has the strong stench of “who’s better, the guitarist from Aerosmith or the guy from Whitesnake?” debates that hearkens back to the days my youth.

  46. amblinman says:

    “Close but no cigar. Peter turns it down and then says, “I passed the test, right?” (i.e. he turns it down because he thinks that will please Tony.) Thanks for playing tho.”

    No, he turned it down because he realized it was the right thing to do for *his* sake and those he wants to protect. He knows he’s not ready yet. That’s character development which shows a different choice than when the movie started.

    Run outside and continue playing. The adults will finish this. 😉

  47. palmtree says:

    Chris, LOL.

  48. palmtree says:

    amblinman, unfortunately you have to go by what’s in the movie. I see your point and largely agreed with it, up to the point it’s undermined by Peter asking if it’s a test.

    But hey, that’s cool if you see things different than me. No biggie.

    And no, I’m not going outside. It’s hotter than hell today.

  49. GdB says:

    “HC, I didn’t want him back, because I am the sucker who loves Spectre. It ends with him finding love, and walking off into the distance. If he comes back, that negates the entire of ending of that movie, and I hate when they negate entire endings of movies!”

    This is exactly my problem with The Force Awakens. It totally negates the Happily Ever After ending ROTJ connoted at it’s end. I’ve checked the cannon timeline, the heroes got maybe 5 or 6 good years before their lives went to shit again. They deserve better. We deserve better. We deserved to have one scene with all three of them together, instead we got a lightsaber through the chest that the audience could see coming a mile away. The only thing that movie succeeded in for me was creating three new likeable characters/leads to carry on the saga.

  50. Pete B says:

    @Triple,
    That depends on which Whitesnake guitarist you’re referring to:
    Steve Vai > Joe Perry
    Joe Perry > every other Whitesnake guitarist

  51. Triple Option says:

    palmtree says:
    amblinman, unfortunately you have to go by what’s in the movie. I see your point and largely agreed with it, up to the point it’s undermined by Peter asking if it’s a test.”

    First off, both of you should go to your room until you learn not to engage in movie debate without the use of proper spoiler tags!!

    **POSSIBLE SPOILER!!** Can we go to the instant replay on this? I’m pretty sure after Peter declines the offer he starts to turn to walk away. When he sees Stark still standing there silent, he then chimes in to ask if it was a test. I really believe there was a “beat” there. So, I’d rule that a catch. The receiver had possession before turning up field and the ball falling out of bounds. Ball is marked at the spot of forward progress. First down!

    **END SPOILERS!!**

    @Pete B

    Ha! I used that comparison because it was one I never cared to be a part of! But I had thought Ritchie Blackmore had rejoined Coverdale at some point??

  52. leahnz says:

    amblinman are you sure you’ve actually seen WW, as there are two scenes i can think of where steve literally tells diana that he had lost his way, the war had worn him down and he forgot what he was fighting for until diana came along and redeemed his faith in himself and humanity

    pragmatism: being concerned with practical matters and acting accordingly. if you don’t see how steve is constantly pragmatic opposed to diana’s unflagging idealism then maybe high-school with peter parker is the perfect place for one to do some remedial learnin bout stuff. (examples of steve’s pragmatism are multiple, just a few examples: in london, at the war room meeting of the old geezers, at the castle party thingy before the gas attack – which angers diana – and probably most tellingly, in the trenches when he tells diana they have to move on and can’t save the village under seige because it’s war and they can’t save everyone, THIS IS PRAGMATISM. you could probably even argue that in death he saw the options for stopping the duel threats of the gas attack and ares’ destruction in a practical way, “i’ll save the day and you save the world”)

    (also, the movie WW was made for women, not 14 yr olds, and a metric shit-ton of men and boys seem to like it like that just fine, clearly)

  53. David Poland says:

    I like Spider-Man: Homecoming and Wonder Woman.

    Neither is a great movie because both are shy of anything of any real weight. They both flirt with serious issues… but then… BAM!

    And that is most comic book movies. Most big action movies.

    That’s why there is a truly great one maybe once every couple years. The rest are brilliantly made, pushing the technical envelope, but… just entertaining diversions.

    So rare that anything real (in the human way) happens in the last 30 minutes.

  54. Pete B says:

    Triple, if Ritchie joined Coverdale then all bets are off.
    But with his ego wouldn’t the band be called Blackmore’s Whitesnake?

  55. leahnz says:

    “Neither is a great movie because both are shy of anything of any real weight. They both flirt with serious issues… but then… BAM!”

    christ not this again

    WW is, in part, a historical war movie and does indeed deal with very serious issues, whether you want to admit it or not

  56. palmtree says:

    Sorry for the lack of spoiler alert…I was trying to be careful about not saying anything too specific in the back and forth and then things heated up, and then BAM!

    And DP, speaking of BAM, does the BAM necessarily invalidate what came before the BAM? Because I feel like not all BAMs ruin a movie if what came before the BAM is really good.

  57. jspartisan says:

    David, that is the biggest, most out of touch bullshit, that you have ever posted. If you really feel that way, then you need to wear an OUT OF TOUCH t-shirt. Good lord. NOTHING OF REAL WEIGHT?

    Beowulf is our first great fucking story, and what the fuck is it? A SUPERHERO TALE! These movies have more weight, more emotion, and more meaning than most fucking Oscar movies ever have. I am just going to point at the Artist right now, point at Avatar right now, then point at any Captain America movie. Yeah. Dropping mic and walking away, because that’s a bullshit attitude to have about the MOST MEANINGFUL SHIT CIVILIZATION HAS EVER CREATED! HULK!?! THROW A GOD DAMN BEAR!

  58. leahnz says:

    just when i think i’ve been blunt in making my point you come along and make me feel understated js

    anyway re: palmtree’s Q above, i mean it would be nice if you’re going to be dismissive of a movie for no follow-through re serious issues and weight, it would be nice (and professional tbh) to actually SAY WHAT THOSE ISSUES ARE and then WHY YOU FEEL THAT WAY, like in school yeah

    snark without explaining your position is just… insufficient

  59. leahnz says:

    i forgot this before re Diana’s arc, she actually summarises it quite succinctly in the screenplay itself as a narrative device (copied over)

    “I used to want save the world, to end war and bring peace to mankind. But then I glimpsed the darkness that lives within their light, and learned that inside every one of them there will always be both, a choice each must make for themselves – something no hero will ever defeat. And now I know that only love can truly save the world, so I stay, I fight and I give, for the world I know can be.”

    hope springs eternal

    ETA i heard a debate about WW’s mythic finale in terms of biblical/Christian allegory, which i admit hadn’t even really blipped on my radar — SPOILERS —- ares as a lucifer-type figure, hiding in plain sight amongst his marks, not forcing humans to do anything but rather just taking advantage when they fuck up and turn to hate and darkness. i’m not sure what i think about this

  60. jspartisan says:

    Leah… I don’t carry a bat. I CARRY A FUCKING LOG SPLITTER :D!

  61. Monco says:

    GdB is exactly right about TFA. Literally the movie made it so the original trilogy never happened. Leia establishing the New Republic on Coruscant? Nope. Han and Leia having a strong marriage? Nope failed marriage. Empire defeated after 30 years. Nope got the New Order. Han becoming a General? Nope he apparently is Jack Sparrow where he repeatedly has the Millenium Falcon stolen from him. Luke establishing a New Jedi Order? Nope apparently a pip squeak angsty teen slaughtered his trainees and instead Luke, the presumably most power character in galaxy, runs away with his tail between his legs to go into hiding because he is not able to defeat a character who gets his ass kicked by a character who has no training in the force.

    I could go on and on. The beloved characters of the OT were shown to be failures and fuck ups. The most interesting part of this is that the 40 year old fanboys who claimed the creator of the films they so love “raped their childhoods” with the prequels, actually loved a film that essentially erased those films they were so precious about. JJ Abrams couldn’t be a bigger hack.

  62. Bulldog68 says:

    Dead pool tweeted WW with congrats. “The Merc may be filthier but her B.O. is stronger. Congrats WW.”

    That’s nice.

  63. Doug R says:

    Right on Monco. I watched TFA and was amused but it felt like all these story gears were already used in the original. Another Death Star? New Order already taking over the galaxy? Rebel leaders in hiding already? JJ is just staying in his usual form, blowing up Vulcan and spending what 7 years to tell a story about people dying in a plane crash?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsgJcVVbVgQ

  64. jspartisan says:

    Let me tell you how inaccurate you are, Monco. McW MODE! ACTIVATED!

    “GdB is exactly right about TFA. Literally the movie made it so the original trilogy never happened. Leia establishing the New Republic on Coruscant?”

    No. It is still based on Coruscant, but they would move it around like the EU lets different countries run it. There are multiple comics and books, that explain this.

    “Nope. Han and Leia having a strong marriage? Nope failed marriage.”

    Actually, they were only separated for five years, but they were individuals in their marriages. This is all explained in Bloodline. People like you, seem to have miss something, so let me CAP IT OUT for you. LUKE HAS ONLY BEEN MISSING FOR FIVE YEARS! That’s it. It’s not ten years. It’s not twenty years. It’s five, so you can stop carrying on about Leia and Han not having a successful marriage. They did, but they are that married couple who are a couple, but aren’t home a lot.

    “Empire defeated after 30 years. Nope got the New Order.”

    Actually, the Empire was defeated, but they decided to be realistic with this shit. This again, is all explained in Bloodline, but you had parts of the galaxy that liked the way the Empire governed. They got paid, their people were relatively taken care of; and they had minimal interference. What happens when the Empire dies? Shit changes, and we all know politicians are dicks to change.

    You also have to be WILLFULLY IGNORANT, to how the fucking EU spent decades writing stories about Imperial Reminants. That’s what the fucking First Order is, but those fuckers have Snoke. The dark thing, from way out there, that freaked Palpy out.

    “Han becoming a General? Nope he apparently is Jack Sparrow where he repeatedly has the Millenium Falcon stolen from him.”

    No, he was a general, then he retired, He retired to racing, and that’s when the Falcon was stolen from him and Chewie.

    “Luke establishing a New Jedi Order? Nope apparently a pip squeak angsty teen slaughtered his trainees and instead Luke, the presumably most power character in galaxy, runs away with his tail between his legs to go into hiding because he is not able to defeat a character who gets his ass kicked by a character who has no training in the force.”

    This is such an ignorant comment. Luke had his entire life destroyed by Snoke and Kylo, but he didn’t run. He wanted to make sense out of what keeps happening. Why Jedi keep killing Sith. Why Sith keep killing Jedi. Why none of it ends, and the cycle keeps repeating. That’s the point of the fucking Last Jedi and if you weren’t being so fucking angst ridden while watching TFA. You would have caught Snoke saying, “If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise.” Do you get what he’s stating? It’s the balance. It’s the balance that Luke finds there on Act-to, and Rey helps him bring about a new Jedi. Hopefully, a jedi order that stops the endless fucking cycle of violence, but feel free to get butt hurt about it like you are about Rey. Have a daughter… Rey is fucking awesome. Also, she defeated Kylo, because HE HAD A FUCKING BOWCASTER BOLT IN HIS SIDE! She also, has the force with her, but please feel free to ignore this, to rant about whatever nonsense makes you hate the best thing in Star Wars since Luke Skywalker.

    “I could go on and on. The beloved characters of the OT were shown to be failures and fuck ups. The most interesting part of this is that the 40 year old fanboys who claimed the creator of the films they so love ‘raped their childhoods’ with the prequels, actually loved a film that essentially erased those films they were so precious about. JJ Abrams couldn’t be a bigger hack.”

    Live some life, and you will realize the idealism of youth, is all folly. Sometimes, it may pay off, but these characters were written to be PEOPLE, but guess what? They didn’t fuck up. They had a shit five years. FIVE FUCKING YEARS, MONCO! Han and Leia, may not have always been there for Ben, but they loved their son. Rather he accepted it or not. Luke, lost everything, and responded like one does in this instances, and sought out more meaning. Thirty years is a long time, but the characters we both love only had FIVE SHIT ONES! That’s it.

    Also, those assholes threw TFA on the rubbish bin, for the shit known as Rogue Wasted Opportunity One. How they feel isn’t important, because they are weird randos. Nevertheless, five years, Monco. Five years.

  65. Sideshow Bill says:

    JS for the win.

    (although I liked Rogue One)

  66. jspartisan says:

    Bill, I fucking love Jyn Erso, and it bums me out she doesn’t get to get more work, with many Bothans.

    But TFA doesn’t negate any HAPPILY EVER AFTER! Bond is one man. The Rebellion defeated the fucking Empire, who reigned for over thirty years, and power transitioning is always a fucking pain. Again, they had five bad years. Doesn’t negate the previous 25.

  67. EtGuild2 says:

    Could we get a BYOB if we’re extra good DP/Ray? I’m comic booked/tentpoled out haha.

  68. hcat says:

    “You also have to be WILLFULLY IGNORANT, to how the fucking EU spent decades”

    As opposed to just not giving a damn about movie tie-ins? A movie is a movie, if they do their job they do not require primers or cliff notes.

  69. Sideshow Bill says:

    What EtGuild2 said. A BYOB would be nice. I want to talk about The Wailing. I know I’m late to the party on it but damn it was haunting.

    And want to read opinions on Ghost Story because I probably won’t get to see it until digital.

    Lots of other interesting stuff happening. Tarantino Manson family movie?! The Spider-Man/Wonder Woman back and forth was fun though.

  70. jspartisan says:

    Hcat, then you aren’t a Star Wars fan. Monco and I, one would wager, have read quite a few EU books/games. Some of those books, have led to Coruscant, Thrawn, and constant little bits in the new canon. A movie is not a fucking movie, when a movie has a TON OF FUCKING TIE IN NOVELS/Comics/GAMES like every Disney Star Wars film has, and will continue to have. Again, they eliminated the EU, people freaked out, but the new canon keeps filling out what happened.

  71. Doug R says:

    Isn’t a movie supposed to TELL A STORY. If it needs mansplaining, then the filmmaker didn’t do a good job of storytelling.
    Which goes to the earlier point of JJ is a HACK.

  72. Pete B says:

    If they “eliminated the EU” then what was the point?
    So you read a bunch of stuff that didn’t matter, and are giving others crap for not wasting their time too?

  73. jspartisan says:

    Oh… a couple of wiseguys. Doug, I was responding to what Monco wrote, and all of it has been explained. His baggage, has nothing to do with the movie, but everything to do with him. Every complaint he has, was addressed, and dealt with. Also, it’s not mansplaning. If it involves filling someone in, on how every assumption they had about the new canon was wrong

    Pete, there is a new EXPANDED UNIVERSE, that explains every complaint anyone could have about TFA. JJ isn’t a hack. JJ, is a rather above average dude. Seriously, I can go Joshua all night on you two, but Monco brought baggage to a film, that doesn’t even have that baggage.

  74. Pete B says:

    I’m just saying you can still be a fan and not have partaken of all the extra stuff. There’s different levels of commitment.

    Speaking of commitment, Spidey doesn’t have much to worry about if attendance for the Apes Trilogy is an indicator of interest. Just got back from a marathon of Rise, Dawn, and War with a whopping 5 people in the theater. Yikes!

  75. jspartisan says:

    Pete, I was referring to fans like Monco and me, because only hardcore fucking fans get upset about this shit. I was just as pissed as Monco, and that’s why I tried to stay up on all the new canon shit, in a hope they would explain themselves. Which, oddly enough, the motherfuckers actually did. Hcat, bringing up what he did, is ignoring that this is a debate between to Star Wars fans, that go all out. It isn’t just about the movies. I guarantee you, HC won’t know Doctor Aphra, but Monco will.

    Those motherfucking Ape movies, are weird. They seem to be loved, but there doesn’t seem to be any excitement for this new film. It will probably do the same solid business that the previous films did before, because it’s not like people are walking away from a finale.

  76. Pete B says:

    JS, I understand as my sister was into some novels with Qui-Gon Jinn. I remember being all excited when Splinter in the Mind’s Eye came out, and thinking it came off as wankery.

    And hardcore fans didn’t start with Star Wars. Even though I could quote episodes of the original Star Trek TV series by heart, I wasn’t a true fan according to my cousin as I hadn’t read any of the novels.

  77. hcat says:

    “Pete, there is a new EXPANDED UNIVERSE, that explains every complaint anyone could have about TFA. JJ isn’t a hack.”

    So they retconned the Star Wars Universe? This begs the question of in this version DOES HAN SHOOT FIRST? Because if the answer is no than by following this revised cannon you are not a true fan but are praying to a false god. True fans of Star Wars are orthodox and ONLY adhere to the original trilogy (and never ever mention the word episode when saying a title). You have followed the pretenders and then had them change what you consider cannon (and how is there anything hackier than going “no all that stuff didn’t really happen”). You are not a true believer and are following the televangelist wealth gospel bullshit version of Star Wars.

  78. jspartisan says:

    Actually, George says, “No.” I go with George, and there are different degrees of fans, HC. Let us not act as if, everyone is a fan of everything in the same way. Also, outside of all of that word soup. Don’t mix Stan Lee and George Lucas, and they didn’t retcon the universe. They just created their own canon, which they paid 5 billion dollars to do. Nice word soup though, but there is some film you and I both like. Guess what? You may like it more than me, so you would be more of a fan of it, than I am. If that’s hard for you to grasp, then try to get another kungfu grip :D!

  79. EtGuild2 says:

    Does Pam McClintock at THR read the HOT BLOG? Article on WW’s 3.8 multiplier and how it’s holding better than any superhero movie since SPIDER-MAN:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/wonder-woman-box-office-superhero-movies-1020621

  80. hcat says:

    “Hcat, then you aren’t a Star Wars fan.”

    ” there are different degrees of fans, HC. Let us not act as if, everyone is a fan of everything in the same way”

    What a difference a day makes.

    Not sure if what I wrote is word soup, it seems pretty clear, a little batshit I admit, but I thought you might be able to understand the sentiment better if I expressed it as righteous fan indignation speech.

  81. jspartisan says:

    Yeah, you totally missed that point, HC. We just don’t get along, never really do, but do you know Doctor Aphra? This is what we all want to know!

  82. palmtree says:

    Et, wouldn’t surprise me at all. But the least Pam could have done is given us some credit!

  83. jspartisan says:

    Here’s to someone, who ACTUALLY GETS HOW INCREDIBLE WONDER WOMAN’S BOX OFFICE IS! Oh. It’s not Avatar’s, or TFA’s. It’s still fucking amazing, and someone needs to recognize… DAVE… it.

  84. Bulldog68 says:

    Nice horse race between the three comic book movies. WW has basically won the battle against GotG2 and is now $4m ahead at the 42 day point. Spiderman has now grossed less on it’s first Thursday than WW, so we’ll see how it’s legs are going forward. It basically sharing the family market with DM3 and nothing new till the Emoji movie on July 28th, so good possibilities. It would still have to have insane legs to top WW, but the race will be enjoyable to watch.

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